Defending the Olivet Discourse

In the American Civil War there was over 10,500 battles that took place. But of all the battles that were fought, the Battle of Gettysburg was by far the bloodiest. There were well over 50,000 casualties during that battle between the two forces. For some perspective, the 2^nd and 3^rd bloodiest battles averaged to have about 30,000 casualties. The Battle of Gettysburg was substantially larger in terms of casualties sustained.  

This isn’t a history post, though we are dealing once again with more of a historical approach to eschatology. I mention this historical account in conjunction with eschatology because for some reason civil war breaks out within the church anytime end times are brought up. We just can’t get on the same page for so many things. In my opinion, it is the Olivet Discourse where the most blood gets shed. The Olivet Discourse is the Gettysburg of Eschatology. Pre-trib interpretations claim it is talking about Christ’s return after the wrath of God with all the saints. Post-trib interpretations claim it supports a rapture to happen after God’s wrath. Pre-wrath interpretations, as I support, believe it is talking about the rapture to take place after great persecution, just before God’s wrath is poured out on the wicked. And now we are back again defending the Olivet Discourse because Preterist interpretations claim that Jesus was describing the events that would eventually happen in 70 AD. In other words, Preterists believe that almost everything in the Olivet Discourse has already happened. This is a bloody mess that needs cleaned up! 

Fortunately, I have brought my mop and cleaning supplies, and I am prepared to continue this series refuting Preterism until the truth of God’s Word shines brightly for all to see clearly. In my last post, I introduced the debate and demonstrated how Preterism fails the test of time. This included problems with the date to which the book of Revelation was written, the task of believers to reach ALL the nations before Christ returns, and the butchering of the timeline for the prophecy of Daniel’s 70^th week. Time works against Preterist interpretations, not in favor of it as they often suggest.  

Today I will be addressing the various signs and events described in the Olivet Discourse. We will be examining them alongside the events that took place in 70 AD to see if there can be conclusive evidence to suggest that Jesus was not referring to the end of the world, but to the end of the Jewish age, as R.C. Sproul and other Partial Preterists claim.  

We are not going to beat around the bush or nitpick passages here. We are going to begin right in Matthew’s account of the Olivet discourse right after the disciples asked Jesus “when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?” Jesus answers them in Matthew 24:4-14, which says,  

“And Jesus answered and said to them: ‘Take heed that no one deceives you. For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many. And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places. All these are the beginning of sorrows. Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. But he who endures to the end shall be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.” 

We are going to begin creating a growing list of items present in the Olivet Discourse, excluding only topics already covered in the previous post. We will then examine the list alongside the events that transpired in 70 AD. For the most part, R.C. Sproul made it easy for us because he does this himself. I will largely be basing this off of his own words, including his own arguments. Many of his arguments I find unsatisfying and not true to the text. This is the beginning of our list concerning the things we see in the Olivet Discourse: 

1. False prophets will arise claiming to be Christ 

2. Wars and rumors of wars 

3. Famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places 

4. Great tribulation/persecution 

Jesus then gets more specific. When will this great persecution take place? Matthew 24:15-22 says,  

“Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.” 

When we see this “abomination of desolation” stand in the Holy place, great tribulation begins. Fortunately for us, we just went through a series on Daniel and can recognize that this abomination of desolation is related to a boastful man who rises to power and claims to be God. Daniel gives us the model, and Jesus is referencing this model from him. We can add to our list that a man will rise to power, claim to be God, desecrate the temple, set up some sort of blasphemous image, and demand worship. Following the model set forth in Daniel, understandably, those who do not worship this man, the antichrist, will be heavily persecuted. The great tribulation/persecution is geared towards those who follow the one true God and refuse to bow down to this man. Our list is almost complete. Jesus wraps up the things to be watchful of in Matthew 24:29-31, which says,  

“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.” 

The sun, moon and stars will not shine. I will call these cosmic disturbances. Cosmic disturbances will take place. A great earthquake will take place. And then, probably the most significant sign will take place: Jesus, the Son of Man will be SEEN coming in the clouds of heaven. He will send angels at the sound of a trumpet to gather together his elect from the four winds. In response to this sight, the tribes of the world will mourn. In totality, here is our completed list of signs: 

1. False prophets will arise claiming to be Christ (The antichrist will arise) 

2. Wars and rumors of wars  

3. Famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places  

4. The antichrist will set up the abomination of Desolation in the temple 

5. Great tribulation/persecution of believers 

6. Cosmic disturbances  

7. The Son of Man seen coming in the clouds of heaven. 

8. Trumpet will sound and the elect will be gathered from the four winds 

9. Tribes of the earth will mourn 

I am going to be talking more in depth about the antichrist and the abomination of desolation in my next post, so I will not be focusing on them much here for the sake of time. That’s why they are crossed out. They are on the list, but I will be addressing them at a later time. I also will not be talking about the obvious. In 70 AD Rome besieged Jerusalem. There was war. Nothing more is needed to be said on that. Congratulations, Preterists get their one rock solid point of evidence here. Everything else will be called into question and their connections to the Olivet Discourse will be disproven.  

1. “There will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places.” 

It is documented that the siege of Jerusalem lasted for 5 months. Jerusalem’s walls and the forces defending them were proven to be formidable. But this resulted in another problem. Jerusalem was cut off from outside sources for 5 months. Josephus was a Jewish commander who was held captive by the Roman forces and documented this war in its entirety. He noted that because of the extensive amount of time without any additional resources, those living in Jerusalem began to starve. Famine and diseases began to spread. People began losing their minds. He gave one rather gruesome example where a mother was so hungry that she cooked and ate her own nursing baby. This is where the Preterists jump the gun and say “See! There was famine and disease in Jerusalem while it was under siege. This supports that point!” I’m not downplaying the severity of the famine that took place in Jerusalem during that time. This was an incredibly horrible time for these people. However, where does this passage say famines and pestilences will take place? It says, “in various places”, not in one singular place. The siege of Jerusalem in 70 AD is too local to be this fulfillment. In fact, in Luke’s account it mentions that “it will come on all those who live on the face of the whole earth.” (Luke 21:35) “It” is referring to all the events described in the Olivet Discourse. Can the argument be made that this was to just be a Jewish event? No. This is much bigger than that. This argument made by Preterism doesn’t work. 

2. “The sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken” – Cosmic Disturbances 

One of the most common ways false interpretations navigate around scripture that doesn’t support their claims is by “spiritualizing” them. Here we see a classic example of that. There is zero evidence to suggest that the sun, moon and stars darkened in 70 AD. Josephus recorded some rather strange occurrences that we will get to here in a moment. But there was nothing that we see here in the text. R.C. Sproul tried to dodge this bullet by insisting that this is all supposed to be metaphorical. We are not going to see the sun, moon and stars actually darken. These cosmic disturbances, he insists, merely represent God’s judgement. He spiritualizes away the text to cover up this preterist problem. His reasoning is because Isaiah 13 describes the same cosmic disturbances in relation to the destruction of Babylon. They didn’t happen literally, so the cosmic disturbances described in the Olivet Discourse must not be literal either. Let’s take a look at this passage in Isaiah 13, beginning with verse 6 and ending in verse 13. It says,  

“Wail, for the day of the Lord is near; it will come like destruction from the Almighty. Because of this, all hands will go limp, every heart will melt with fear. Terror will seize them, pain and anguish will grip them; they will writhe like a woman in labor. They will look aghast at each other, their faces aflame. See, the day of the Lord is coming—a cruel day, with wrath and fierce anger—to make the land desolate and destroy the sinners within it. The stars of heaven and their constellations will not show their light. The rising sun will be darkened and the moon will not give its light. I will punish the world for its evil,  
the wicked for their sins. I will put an end to the arrogance of the haughty and will humble the pride of the ruthless. I will make people scarcer than pure gold, more rare than the gold of Ophir. Therefore I will make the heavens tremble; and the earth will shake from its place at the wrath of the Lord Almighty, in the day of his burning anger.”   

Again, R.C. Sproul believes that since these same cosmic disturbances didn’t happen when Babylon was destroyed, that means they are just metaphorical. However, approaching this passage and interpretating it this way completely dismisses typology and dual fulfillments. This passage begins by saying “the day of the Lord is near.” The day of the Lord is a future event when God pours out his wrath upon the world. You have three options when considering this passage:  

1. The day of the Lord has already passed. 

2. There are multiple days of the Lord. 

3. The destruction of ancient Babylon was merely a “type” of the Day of the Lord that is still to come at the climax of world history. 

Surely, it’s not the first option because that would mean we are well into the Kingdom of God, or better yet, we are currently living in the new heaven and new earth. That’s wrong. Are there multiple days of the Lord? It’s at least a step in the right direction. However, the Bible is very clear that there is a final climactic Day of the Lord that ushers in the Kingdom of God. Therefore, having multiple days of the Lord doesn’t quite fit, biblically speaking. We do see clues, however, to suggest that this is a dual fulfillment prophecy. A dual fulfillment prophecy has immediate application, while also pointing to a future application. The evidence to suggest this is first, the use of the phrase “Day of the Lord”, which we know is supposed to usher in the Kingdom of God and the end of the present age. Secondly, it says, “I will punish the world for its evil, the wicked for their sins.” God is no longer just talking about ancient Babylon here. He’s talking about the judgement of the world. Did the whole world get judged when Babylon got destroyed? No. God is drawing a connection to a future judgement where he will judge the entire world. And when this final judgement comes, the sun, moon and stars will darken, the earth will quake and God will pour out his wrath on the entire world, not simply ancient Babylon. This is a dual fulfillment. The reason we didn’t see these cosmic disturbances in the destruction of ancient Babylon is because it was no longer talking about ancient Babylon’s destruction. Ancient Babylon’s judgement merely served as a “type” of the Day of the Lord and the judgment the world will receive at that time.  

As I said before though, there were some weird cosmic happenings during the time surrounding 70 AD that should be made note of. Preterists consider the 2 comets that appeared at separate times during Caesar Nero’s reign to be significant. One appeared in 65 AD and another appeared in 68 AD. Shortly after the 2^nd comet, Nero committed suicide. Is this significant? I’m just going by the text in the Olivet Discourse, and I’m not seeing anything about comets. I’m not convinced that these play any significant role in fulfilling the prophecy of cosmic disturbances. Josephus also noted a strange heavenly phenomenon during the siege of Jerusalem. He said,   

“Besides these things (referring to the comets) a few days after the feast on the first and 20th days of the month of Artemisius, a certain prodigious and incredible phenomenon appeared. Before the setting of the sun, chariots and troops of soldiers in their armor were seen running about among the clouds and surrounding cities. Moreover, at the feast of Pentecost, as the priests were going by night into the inner court of the temple as their custom was to perform their sacred ministrations, they said that in the first place they felt quaking, and they heard a great noise, after that they heard a sound of a great multitude saying, “Let us remove hence”.  

This is very strange. Also, very interesting. It is important to note that Josephus’ account isn’t necessarily inspired. It’s not on the same level as scripture. And he has been shown to exaggerate certain elements of his account to appeal to Rome, who he was held captive by. Does that mean this didn’t happen? Not necessarily. But we should take everything with a grain of salt that isn’t the inspired Word of God. Though, like I said, this is interesting. I do believe that this was a very spiritually significant event. However, I’m still not seeing the connection to the text in the Olivet Discourse. Preterists seem to want it both ways. They try to say that the cosmic disturbances are just spiritual and figurative, but then they also backtrack and say, “But wait, we actually do have these other cosmic disturbances that might suffice instead.” There is nothing concrete here. The most credit that can be given to the destruction of Jerusalem is like what we just talked about in regard to the destruction of Babylon. This could be a “type” of the Day of the Lord which is still to come. But in no way can it be the complete fulfillment of it. It is missing far too many key elements and was far too local.  

3. “Then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.” 

The first area of criticism here is perhaps the most obvious. In the Olivet Discourse it is said that the Great Tribulation will be greater than this world has ever seen or will ever see. Preterists just seem to gloss over this statement and pretend that any tribulation fulfills this prophecy. There is just no getting around the fact that the persecution of Christians under Nero was not anywhere near as severe as past and future persecutions that are well documented. The exact number of Christians persecuted during this time is highly controversial, but the controversy is still between very low numbers. For example, it is estimated that between 64 and 313 AD about 10,000 to 100,000 Christians were persecuted. This number is incredibly low, especially if it is towards the front end of the estimation. In Daniel 8, we are given a prophecy of a little horn who is often called the Old Testament Antichrist. We come to know him as Antiochus IV Epiphanes. He serves as a type of the antichrist. He fulfills all the requirements of the prophecy and commenced a great persecution against the Jewish people because they would not bow down to the Greek god, Zeus. In a rage, he ordered the slaughter of Jews. In 3 days, his forces mercilessly slaughtered over 80,000 people, including children, women and elderly. THREE DAYS! This is just supposed to be a “type” or shadow of the antichrist to come! Are we seriously supposed to believe that the fulfillment of this typological great persecution is going to be a fraction of the devastation the shadow invoked in just 3 days? You’ve got to be kidding me! This was no great tribulation in Nero’s time. It dwarfs in comparison to its Old Testament shadow. If this great tribulation is supposed to be the most devastating time of persecution, then what was the Holocaust? Millions upon millions of Jews were slaughtered! It’s going to be even more severe than that! But if you are trying to tell me that 100,000 over the course of 250 years is the worst the world has ever experienced then you have lost your mind, respectfully.  

Secondly, Matthew says that “unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved.” Those days were not shortened for Christians under Nero’s reign. The persecution that led up to 70 AD and the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD were not anywhere near global enough to risk extinction of the human race or the Christian/Jewish population. Christians were already scattered at that time. If it was merely talking about the Jewish population then how was it cut short? That was a long drawn-out war that ended how wars naturally end, with the defeat of one side. The Roman armies overcame the forces upholding Jerusalem and they lost. This was normal warfare and ended how normal warfare ends. The persecution of Christians, however, was not cut short either. Like I just addressed, it continued through 313 AD. But guess what? It didn’t at any point outpace the growth of Christianity. Christianity was growing steadily even amidst persecution. So again, how was this time cut short so that some flesh could be saved? This does not align with scripture at all.  

I tried to bolster the numbers for Preterists’ sake by including the casualties of the siege of Jerusalem. But even this does not fit scripture because in Matthew, it says that these people will suffer great tribulation “for my name’s sake.” Fresh out of the gun, from 30 through 70 AD, Jews were not suffering because of Christ’s name. There were some, of course. But largely, the Jewish people had hardened their hearts and freshly rejected Christ. All the Jews who died in 70 AD were those who did not believe in Christ. Those who did, fled the city and heeded the words of Christ. The people who died in Jerusalem didn’t die “for Christ’s sake”, as scripture states.

It must also be noted that the earliest extra-Biblical Christian document, called the Didache, proved is that those who were alive during A.D. 70 believed that the events spoken by Jesus in the Olivet Discourse were still to be fulfilled in the future. The Didache was most likely written in 80 AD and is a small collection of church doctrine. It mentions the antichrist, the great tribulation and Christ’s return all as events that are yet to come in the future. So don’t think for a minute that just because the Christians fled Jerusalem before the siege that it means they believed that was the complete fulfillment. That would be false.  

4. “Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven … and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.” 

Preterists believe that Christ did return in 70 AD… but that his return was, once again, figurative. False prophets should take notes on all the theological gymnastics at play here. If you want to sound truthful, then for every passage that doesn’t align with what you are pushing, just spiritualize it. False, manmade theological beliefs rely heavily on spiritualizing away the texts they don’t like. Preterists claim that Christ returned in 70 AD figuratively; represented by the Roman Empire, in judgement over Israel. It is said that Jesus returned in judgement against the Jews who rejected Him as the Messiah. There is no way you can get that understanding from the text alone. Not only will the sign of the Son of Man appear in heaven, but “they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.” Just in case you thought you could slip in a “secret” coming of Christ, Jesus makes it very clear that this event will be SEEN. Preterist interpretations once again fall flat. Secondly, if this was the wrath of God, then where also were the 7 plagues? I guess that entire portion of Revelation must be spiritualized as well. Why bother writing about 7 plagues of God’s wrath if God’s wrath was simply in the form of the Roman empire doing what the Roman Empire did best? The Olivet Discourse is very clear that Jesus will return VISIBLY and BODILY. Acts 1:11 says,  

“This same Jesus, who is taken up from you into Heaven, shall so come in like manner as you have seen Him go into Heaven.” 

If Preterists are correct, that means Jesus’ ascension was merely figurative because in the same way Christ was taken up into heaven, he will likewise return. You could probably go as far as saying that it implies Christ never literally came in the flesh at all. Let’s just spiritualize the entire incarnation while we are at it. You cannot call yourself an honest interpreter of the Word if you ignore the plain scripture that teaches Christ’s literal, visible return.  

5. “He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”   

That links to my next point, which is that the coming of the Lord very unmistakably is described by Jesus as having a redemptive aspect to it. To pose the argument that Jesus “came” in 70 AD, but it was only in judgement of Israel, you would expect to see strictly judgement associated with that return in the text. However, Christ returning and appearing in the clouds talks little about judgement. I’m not saying that when he comes, he will not enact judgement. I’m merely saying that you cannot hijack the Olivet Discourse like that. You can’t strip away all the redemptive qualities it contains that directly stem from this coming of Christ. The coming of Christ, as described throughout the entire Bible, has both a redemptive and judgmental aspect to it. If the Olivet Discourse is ripped away from the “real” coming of Christ Partial Preterists insist is still to come, then it simply fails as a prooftext because judgment is not the focus of it. In fact, the highlight of the whole message is that things are going to be really bad for believers, BUT GOD will return and redeem us. He will gather us unto himself. There is no emphasis of judgement in the Olivet Discourse.   

Now, I could show you where it alludes to judgement because we do see the people of the world mourning for what’s to come upon the earth. For example, Revelation 6 continues this narrative and we then come to understand that they were running because God’s wrath was about to be poured out on them immediately after believers in Christ are sealed and “gathered” unto him in heaven. But that is a futurist Pre-Wrath interpretation with the understanding that the Day of the Lord is both a great day of redemption for the believers in Christ, and simultaneously a terrible day for the wicked who are about to experience the full wrath of God. I go over this extensively in my post, “The Day of the Lord vs. The Day of Christ”.   

My only reason for mentioning all this is because the text alone in the Olivet Discourse does not at all emphasize judgement. Therefore, extracting this passage and claiming it only has past fulfillment in 70 AD, where Jesus returned in judgement alone, is wrong.   

Only a futurist interpretation can harmonize the dual nature of the Day of the Lord. Particularly, it is only a Pre-Wrath futurist interpretation that can properly do so. Judgement and redemption will take place on the Day of the Lord. You can’t just take one or the other. Especially if your proof text is the Olivet Discourse, which focuses on redemption.   

We also see in the text that Christ will “gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.” Once again, we are reminded of the global nature of this event. Redemption and gathering together of the elect are missing in preterist interpretations. But also, gathering people from all over the earth is missing. This passage only makes sense in a futurist pre-wrath interpretation, where we understand that Christians will be scattered all across the globe. Therefore, very understandably, Christ will come and gather us from all across the world.  

The argument that could be made concerning this is that Jewish Christians were “gathered” and fled Jerusalem when the Roman army came. Does this work? Again, biblically, it simply doesn’t suffice. There are two primary reasons for this. The first is because of the locality of the supposed “gathering”. The passage says that these people are gathered “from the four winds”. In other words, they were gathered from the north, south, east and west. This is a global gathering. What we saw in 70 AD was once again, too local of an event to possibly represent the events that are described In the Olivet Discourse. Secondly, Jewish Christians leaving Jerusalem doesn’t reflect the supernatural aspect of this gathering, as stated in the Olivet Discourse. Matthew 24:40-41 says,  

“Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left. Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left.” 

It doesn’t say that one person will stay, and one person will leave. It says that one will be taken, and the other left. Jewish Christians weren’t taken from Jerusalem, they left. Also, in 70 AD, when people in the surrounding towns saw the armies coming, they ALL fled. Some fled to the hills and some to Jerusalem, where they met their demise. No one stayed behind because no one is that dumb when they see an army coming. One was taken up to be with the Lord because of their faith in Christ. The other is left because they did not believe in Christ.

This passage also demonstrates the instantaneous nature of this gathering as well. This passage implies that people will be taken right from where they are currently at. It may be in a field. It may be at a mill. They will be taken supernaturally. The text does not reflect what we saw happen in 70 AD. There is just no way you can be true to the text and hold to any preterist interpretation.  

There is much more that could be said, but I do not want this post to drag on any more than it already has. At the surface, it is very easy to make arguments that appear to align with scripture. But when you take a step closer to the text, the inconsistencies and mishandling of it becomes much more obvious. Preterism is very guilty of this. It just doesn’t fit the text, so it is forced to fit by compromising scripture and spiritualizing it away. Next time, we will take a closer look at the character that Preterists refer to as the antichrist: Caesar Nero. Does he fit the bill? Stay tuned and find out!  

Thank you for reading. God bless!